OK, this does seem to be a particularly fishy case. His operation is much larger than I’ve read of previously. And this nationwide shipping network for raw dairy is highly suspect.
Why is nationwide shipping for raw dairy highly suspect? Did you know there are people all over the world who need raw milk for their health but are unable to find it within 100 miles of their home?
Unfortunately, you can't make that happen, can you?
Meanwhile, people like Amos Miller are desperate people's only solution.
Would you have these people be deprived of life-giving food while they wait years or maybe decades for a local farmer who may never show up / come to their rescue?
There is no evidence of his price gauging. His prices are low if anything. I can compare him to a dozen similar farmers. I have all their price lists. $11/gallon of milk is standard. $16/lb of raw butter is low.
His practices are excellent. He has a very clean facility and very careful people working with him. Not one single member has ever complained about getting sick from his products. In addition, not one single case of illness has been proven to be linked to his products.
Thank you for another great investigative article! You ask the questions more people should be asking. How is a simple "Amish" farmer a multimillionaire? Why is he still allowed to operate after his many crimes? Miller's blatant criminal actions gives all Amish, and real farmers, a bad name. Could he be a pretender? Could he be a stooge in a Hegelian Dialectic (ie. Problem-Reaction-Solution) Campaign, where he is the "problem" that brings about the "reaction" for the prescribed "solution" of unnecessary restrictive laws for real farmers who provide real food for their communities? Is this a set up, by design? It sure smells that way. Who is really behind this?
Are you aware that land prices in Lancaster are sky high and that it is normal to pay over 1 million for land? Did you know that cows take a lot of land to graze? All the land he bought is to put food into the mouths of his members. I don't see anything wrong with an Amish man owning millions of land. It is his right and if he is doing it in the name of good food, so be it. This is a free country.
Liz, I have read all your Amos Miller blog posts on your old blog. This is in response to your 3rd blog, "Amos Miller’s Antics And Stories Lead To Loss Of Food Freedom".
Do you understand that some of us actually do not want the USDA or PDA or FDA involved in our food supply? That we don't want to have to buy a half beef or quarter beef from a custom slaughter facility? We want access to whatever foods we choose and we are happy to sign a liability waiver. We are consenting adults. We do NOT want our food steamed or put in hot water or put in acids. We want the meat as it is when it comes out of the cow and hangs. Some of us even want to consume it raw. Do any of these big wigs have a solution for us? No. They don't. What they do want is power over our food supply. I am appalled that you think that they MUST have a hand in our food supply and that that is the way forward.
Your recent posts, when skimmed by me, in my observation read like an ad for the government. I can see by your first posts, and I can understand from your past experience with Amos Miller while you were working with him, that you may have personal feelings about him. However, it seems you are now embracing government entities and their "safety nets" as the way forward. That I do not agree with and am so surprised by, knowing your history.
I am a member and regularly pick up items at this farm. A gallon of a2a2 organic frozen raw milk is only $10. 5 lb heavy raw cream $36 (7.25 8 oz). These prices are not out of range. In addition, purchases over $100 qualify for a free item every month and in December it was 1lb raw cheese. This is a true organic farm which practices regenerative farming as I have witnessed over the years and does not appear to be a large scale operation. How many of the 4000 members are actually regular shoppers? The farm is very clean. Beautiful, actually. While they do not have a permit they do regularly test the milk they sell. As for the $250,000 building, if it actually exists I have not seen it on the family farm.
1. Is he buying in most of the milk from other smaller farmers (often desperate to keep their dairies from folding) with less negotiating power? If so, at what prices? Are the farmers he's potentially outsourcing from getting paid fairly for those transactions?
2. In my experience, when anyone is operating within a black market, they are not subject to many of the expenses that competitors are such as proper labeling, regularity of testing, and other small expenses that add up.
Mr. Miller is Amish. If he is buying milk from other farmers then they’d be the Amish farmers in the area. And as the Amish families are so large, the other farmers could even be his relatives, and considered part of his business, not a competitor.
I’d be interested to know how he’s able to ship raw milk products via interstate, especially with all the restrictions on raw milk. The prices quoted by Matt are commensurate with the prices I’m seeing where I’m at in the Dallas area. I just bought 2 gallons of raw milk the other day for $20. So $10/gallon isn’t out of line.
Great questions! He is not paying for the shipping costs would be my guess. Back in the day you could buy things for "free" as long as you paid the hefty S/H costs. So if Amos is buying milk for $2.50 a gallon (random number, ask him the truth) and the source is not testing it, and Amos is not testing it before it goes into the bulk tank with his "tested" milk... well, "I’d be interested to know how he’s able to ship raw milk products via interstate"?
Interesting, Matt. Thanks for weighing in here. How do you square the interstate commerce in violation of law and the cases of listeria and E. coli? I had no idea his operation was so large. Do the Amish consider him Amish? I’m struggling to imagine how he’s able to ship raw dairy to customers in NY and Michigan. Seems like that would be a difficult endeavor, especially without extensive modernization. Most states won’t allow retail purchases within the state, let alone across state lines like that.
Hello Lisa. Yes, Mr. Miller is Amish. I do not know exactly how large the operation is but what I see is a small scale family farm and there are also a bunch of these in the area doing the same thing as Mr. Miller and this includes shipping raw milk across state lines. They do not sell to the public. It is a private membership association. This might be what enables them to ship raw milk out of state. In addition, people cannot just walk up to the farm and buy milk or anything without going through the membership process. The web site is amosmillerorganicfarm.com and it addresses pretty much everything including raw milk safety issues.
You might have signed a document. But it means nothing. Where did that document come from? Who wrote it? Who got paid for it? Who is watching to see if Miller is even adhering to the things HE agrees to in that document?
Questions: Could Amos Miller’s PMA have come from a likely scam? Might it have been written by an ex-con imprisoned for fraud, the same guy that got paid to write it? The same fraudster that Miller was shown an irrefutable and extensive history of deceit and fraud following him?
Is anybody keeping Miller accountable for said “agreement?” Could Amos, the scrivener of his bogus PMA and Miller’s upper echelon of minions have been told on multiple occasion that the document was a scam, with proof of statement? Did Miller on MULTIPLE occasions every single week sell outside of that worthless document to non-members that were NOT forced to pay the so called PMA fee to get his aggregated products?
To be clear, Costco is a good example of a legitimate Private Membership Association. But even their PMA has limits to what they can sell you.
Miller's is flat out NOT a private membership association please do due diligence.
He 100% lost his argument in court and, just like all the other farmers (small farmers and otherwise), he must take his meat to a USDA facility to have it butchered and cut. There is no exemption for "PMAs." Zero. You might have a different perspective on this case if you read a few facts before continuing to take this track. You are misinformed. Intentionally.
I'll go back to these basic questions for you:
Did you read the court documents? Did you read the factual reporting on the case by Lancaster Online?
Those are facts.
Look, I was there in court with him on several occasions. I told him from the beginning that the PMA argument wasn't going to work. It wasn't and isn't any kind of legal document or loophole or anything. I've been there before. I know how these cases play out. I've seen what works and what doesn't work.
Now, Amos has once again, raised an absurd amount of money (this time since January 4th) on highly reactive claims "tyrannical government is shutting down a small farm."
Where did all the other money raised go? (from his previous 6-year court case with USDA) What is this new money going towards? Is there ANY accountability? Who is managing that money? Do YOU know where it is going? How it is being used? At least organizations have transparency in place. There is zero transparency in place. "Just trust us" is the unspoken mantra.
Amos and his "supporters" have successfully fundraised to what end? No laws have changed. No policies. No additional access has opened up for anyone. Miller's is under investigation for allegedly causing 2 serious illnesses.
The entire point of my original article is to encourage people to look at the facts rather than be emotionally reactive.
What do you think you are supporting? Vs. What are you actually supporting?
I would ask the same question to anyone donating and/or fundraising on any emotionally reactive situation.
That listeria case was not from a person who ever drank his raw milk. That was proven with affidavits from those who actually received the milk who knew that person.
The PMA agreement he used is not great, as I and many others know, but that doesn't take away from the fact that people want his food and they are willing to sign waivers in order to get it. They would sign whatever agreement he gave them as long as it seemed reasonable and they could get access to these raw milks and 100% untreated meats. The people who want his food are convinced that his food is and has always been of excellent quality and are choosing of their own free will to trust him.
With the route you are suggesting, there is no way for people to privately purchase whatever untreated food they like. It takes the power away from the people and puts it into the hands of the government. None of us want that.
Thank you, Matt. I'm concerned about his company's practice of shipping raw milk as far away as Michigan. It's not in keeping with the local-food system ethos to do that. I personally would not purchase raw milk from across the country, as it requires refrigeration and transport to do that, and is thus much more risky, and I wouldn't be able to meet the farmer and visit the farm, as I have with the farmers I purchase from locally here in my area. And I understand the structure of the buyer's club, but it does seem to be used here as a loophole to try to get around the rules many states have against selling raw milk retail. I'm now very worried that Miller is destroying our good argument for loosening up these raw restrictions. Have you looked at the court documents? In another thread, Liz said they are very revealing. I don't purchase from Miller's company, but if I did, I would certainly read the court docs before continuing, as well as ask to see his facilities. I hate to say this, as I'm very pro-small farms and pro-raw dairy, but he might be giving both a bad name here.
Lisa, there are many farms which sell milk through shipments. Why? Because there are people who are desperate for the food who do not or did not have access in their areas. It should be up to them to decide what is good for their bodies and if they feel comfortable taking a risk.
Are you going to start farming as your life and try to create local food systems where there are food deserts? If so, you're only going to cover one food desert with your efforts, and I imagine only one food group. Who will make the other foods and who will serve all the other food deserts?
Seems like a nice idea, but it's not what is actually happening.
Take Asheville for example. Seems like there should be tons of farmers able to meet the need there. But they're not. Local farms charge $20/gallon for milk and they are sold out and maxed out. That is why people turned to Amos Miller's group there. They did it out of absolute desperation.
Testing milk is a moot point if contaminated milk is making it to unsuspecting and trusting end users. Intentionally or not. Maybe you should ask to see the test results in their entirety? Ask to go back a year, or to when you signed the document that exempts Mr. Miller from any wrong doing no matter how egregious on his behalf...
This is surprising. I’ll need to do more research on it.
OK, this does seem to be a particularly fishy case. His operation is much larger than I’ve read of previously. And this nationwide shipping network for raw dairy is highly suspect.
Why is nationwide shipping for raw dairy highly suspect? Did you know there are people all over the world who need raw milk for their health but are unable to find it within 100 miles of their home?
That's a real problem of its own. We need more local food systems.
Unfortunately, you can't make that happen, can you?
Meanwhile, people like Amos Miller are desperate people's only solution.
Would you have these people be deprived of life-giving food while they wait years or maybe decades for a local farmer who may never show up / come to their rescue?
"Meanwhile, people like Amos Miller are desperate people's only solution."
Could that be hugely in part to his practices? To his deception? To his price gouging of the very "desperate" people he is preying upon?
There is no evidence of his price gauging. His prices are low if anything. I can compare him to a dozen similar farmers. I have all their price lists. $11/gallon of milk is standard. $16/lb of raw butter is low.
His practices are excellent. He has a very clean facility and very careful people working with him. Not one single member has ever complained about getting sick from his products. In addition, not one single case of illness has been proven to be linked to his products.
Very interesting, I'd only ever heard the 'poor Amos Miller' version of events.
Thanks Liz.
Excellent article. I will be sharing this. Very enlightening.
Thank you for another great investigative article! You ask the questions more people should be asking. How is a simple "Amish" farmer a multimillionaire? Why is he still allowed to operate after his many crimes? Miller's blatant criminal actions gives all Amish, and real farmers, a bad name. Could he be a pretender? Could he be a stooge in a Hegelian Dialectic (ie. Problem-Reaction-Solution) Campaign, where he is the "problem" that brings about the "reaction" for the prescribed "solution" of unnecessary restrictive laws for real farmers who provide real food for their communities? Is this a set up, by design? It sure smells that way. Who is really behind this?
Yes, Rosanne, more people need to ask hard questions.
Are you aware that land prices in Lancaster are sky high and that it is normal to pay over 1 million for land? Did you know that cows take a lot of land to graze? All the land he bought is to put food into the mouths of his members. I don't see anything wrong with an Amish man owning millions of land. It is his right and if he is doing it in the name of good food, so be it. This is a free country.
Liz, I have read all your Amos Miller blog posts on your old blog. This is in response to your 3rd blog, "Amos Miller’s Antics And Stories Lead To Loss Of Food Freedom".
Do you understand that some of us actually do not want the USDA or PDA or FDA involved in our food supply? That we don't want to have to buy a half beef or quarter beef from a custom slaughter facility? We want access to whatever foods we choose and we are happy to sign a liability waiver. We are consenting adults. We do NOT want our food steamed or put in hot water or put in acids. We want the meat as it is when it comes out of the cow and hangs. Some of us even want to consume it raw. Do any of these big wigs have a solution for us? No. They don't. What they do want is power over our food supply. I am appalled that you think that they MUST have a hand in our food supply and that that is the way forward.
Your recent posts, when skimmed by me, in my observation read like an ad for the government. I can see by your first posts, and I can understand from your past experience with Amos Miller while you were working with him, that you may have personal feelings about him. However, it seems you are now embracing government entities and their "safety nets" as the way forward. That I do not agree with and am so surprised by, knowing your history.
I am a member and regularly pick up items at this farm. A gallon of a2a2 organic frozen raw milk is only $10. 5 lb heavy raw cream $36 (7.25 8 oz). These prices are not out of range. In addition, purchases over $100 qualify for a free item every month and in December it was 1lb raw cheese. This is a true organic farm which practices regenerative farming as I have witnessed over the years and does not appear to be a large scale operation. How many of the 4000 members are actually regular shoppers? The farm is very clean. Beautiful, actually. While they do not have a permit they do regularly test the milk they sell. As for the $250,000 building, if it actually exists I have not seen it on the family farm.
Liz, I’d be interested in your response to the prices quoted here, re: the claim he’s exploiting a black market for raw dairy.
Yes, prices seem competitive at times.
However, consider 2 things:
1. Is he buying in most of the milk from other smaller farmers (often desperate to keep their dairies from folding) with less negotiating power? If so, at what prices? Are the farmers he's potentially outsourcing from getting paid fairly for those transactions?
2. In my experience, when anyone is operating within a black market, they are not subject to many of the expenses that competitors are such as proper labeling, regularity of testing, and other small expenses that add up.
Mr. Miller is Amish. If he is buying milk from other farmers then they’d be the Amish farmers in the area. And as the Amish families are so large, the other farmers could even be his relatives, and considered part of his business, not a competitor.
Yes all the farmers he was buying milk from were his Amish neighbors. They are now really suffering.
Can you please clarify your comment here? I do not understand what you are trying to convey?
I’d be interested to know how he’s able to ship raw milk products via interstate, especially with all the restrictions on raw milk. The prices quoted by Matt are commensurate with the prices I’m seeing where I’m at in the Dallas area. I just bought 2 gallons of raw milk the other day for $20. So $10/gallon isn’t out of line.
Yes here in Michigan raw milk is $10 per gallon.
I’m paying $6 per half or $12.
Sounds about right.
Great questions! He is not paying for the shipping costs would be my guess. Back in the day you could buy things for "free" as long as you paid the hefty S/H costs. So if Amos is buying milk for $2.50 a gallon (random number, ask him the truth) and the source is not testing it, and Amos is not testing it before it goes into the bulk tank with his "tested" milk... well, "I’d be interested to know how he’s able to ship raw milk products via interstate"?
Interesting, Matt. Thanks for weighing in here. How do you square the interstate commerce in violation of law and the cases of listeria and E. coli? I had no idea his operation was so large. Do the Amish consider him Amish? I’m struggling to imagine how he’s able to ship raw dairy to customers in NY and Michigan. Seems like that would be a difficult endeavor, especially without extensive modernization. Most states won’t allow retail purchases within the state, let alone across state lines like that.
Hello Lisa. Yes, Mr. Miller is Amish. I do not know exactly how large the operation is but what I see is a small scale family farm and there are also a bunch of these in the area doing the same thing as Mr. Miller and this includes shipping raw milk across state lines. They do not sell to the public. It is a private membership association. This might be what enables them to ship raw milk out of state. In addition, people cannot just walk up to the farm and buy milk or anything without going through the membership process. The web site is amosmillerorganicfarm.com and it addresses pretty much everything including raw milk safety issues.
Matt,
That's just it. There IS NO "PMA." None.
You might have signed a document. But it means nothing. Where did that document come from? Who wrote it? Who got paid for it? Who is watching to see if Miller is even adhering to the things HE agrees to in that document?
Questions: Could Amos Miller’s PMA have come from a likely scam? Might it have been written by an ex-con imprisoned for fraud, the same guy that got paid to write it? The same fraudster that Miller was shown an irrefutable and extensive history of deceit and fraud following him?
Is anybody keeping Miller accountable for said “agreement?” Could Amos, the scrivener of his bogus PMA and Miller’s upper echelon of minions have been told on multiple occasion that the document was a scam, with proof of statement? Did Miller on MULTIPLE occasions every single week sell outside of that worthless document to non-members that were NOT forced to pay the so called PMA fee to get his aggregated products?
To be clear, Costco is a good example of a legitimate Private Membership Association. But even their PMA has limits to what they can sell you.
Miller's is flat out NOT a private membership association please do due diligence.
He 100% lost his argument in court and, just like all the other farmers (small farmers and otherwise), he must take his meat to a USDA facility to have it butchered and cut. There is no exemption for "PMAs." Zero. You might have a different perspective on this case if you read a few facts before continuing to take this track. You are misinformed. Intentionally.
I'll go back to these basic questions for you:
Did you read the court documents? Did you read the factual reporting on the case by Lancaster Online?
Those are facts.
Look, I was there in court with him on several occasions. I told him from the beginning that the PMA argument wasn't going to work. It wasn't and isn't any kind of legal document or loophole or anything. I've been there before. I know how these cases play out. I've seen what works and what doesn't work.
Now, Amos has once again, raised an absurd amount of money (this time since January 4th) on highly reactive claims "tyrannical government is shutting down a small farm."
Where did all the other money raised go? (from his previous 6-year court case with USDA) What is this new money going towards? Is there ANY accountability? Who is managing that money? Do YOU know where it is going? How it is being used? At least organizations have transparency in place. There is zero transparency in place. "Just trust us" is the unspoken mantra.
Amos and his "supporters" have successfully fundraised to what end? No laws have changed. No policies. No additional access has opened up for anyone. Miller's is under investigation for allegedly causing 2 serious illnesses.
The entire point of my original article is to encourage people to look at the facts rather than be emotionally reactive.
What do you think you are supporting? Vs. What are you actually supporting?
I would ask the same question to anyone donating and/or fundraising on any emotionally reactive situation.
Pause. Read. Verify.
That listeria case was not from a person who ever drank his raw milk. That was proven with affidavits from those who actually received the milk who knew that person.
The PMA agreement he used is not great, as I and many others know, but that doesn't take away from the fact that people want his food and they are willing to sign waivers in order to get it. They would sign whatever agreement he gave them as long as it seemed reasonable and they could get access to these raw milks and 100% untreated meats. The people who want his food are convinced that his food is and has always been of excellent quality and are choosing of their own free will to trust him.
With the route you are suggesting, there is no way for people to privately purchase whatever untreated food they like. It takes the power away from the people and puts it into the hands of the government. None of us want that.
Thank you, Matt. I'm concerned about his company's practice of shipping raw milk as far away as Michigan. It's not in keeping with the local-food system ethos to do that. I personally would not purchase raw milk from across the country, as it requires refrigeration and transport to do that, and is thus much more risky, and I wouldn't be able to meet the farmer and visit the farm, as I have with the farmers I purchase from locally here in my area. And I understand the structure of the buyer's club, but it does seem to be used here as a loophole to try to get around the rules many states have against selling raw milk retail. I'm now very worried that Miller is destroying our good argument for loosening up these raw restrictions. Have you looked at the court documents? In another thread, Liz said they are very revealing. I don't purchase from Miller's company, but if I did, I would certainly read the court docs before continuing, as well as ask to see his facilities. I hate to say this, as I'm very pro-small farms and pro-raw dairy, but he might be giving both a bad name here.
Lisa, there are many farms which sell milk through shipments. Why? Because there are people who are desperate for the food who do not or did not have access in their areas. It should be up to them to decide what is good for their bodies and if they feel comfortable taking a risk.
Long-term, local food systems are a better solution. I don't think he's doing the world favors shipping thousands of miles.
Are you going to start farming as your life and try to create local food systems where there are food deserts? If so, you're only going to cover one food desert with your efforts, and I imagine only one food group. Who will make the other foods and who will serve all the other food deserts?
Seems like a nice idea, but it's not what is actually happening.
Take Asheville for example. Seems like there should be tons of farmers able to meet the need there. But they're not. Local farms charge $20/gallon for milk and they are sold out and maxed out. That is why people turned to Amos Miller's group there. They did it out of absolute desperation.
In so many ways, Talk is cheap.
Testing milk is a moot point if contaminated milk is making it to unsuspecting and trusting end users. Intentionally or not. Maybe you should ask to see the test results in their entirety? Ask to go back a year, or to when you signed the document that exempts Mr. Miller from any wrong doing no matter how egregious on his behalf...